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Reports of Duke's Demise Are at Least Slightly Exaggerated

The buzz around the internet today is all about the demise of Duke, led primarily by this Dan Wetzel article and a similar one from CBS. Are they right? Is Duke no longer elite?

Well, it depends on what your definition of elite is. Duke's definitely struggled in the tournament since their last Final Four appearance in 2004, but not that many teams have been consistent over that stretch. The four years since have sent 12 teams to the Final Four; only three have made it more than once and seven haven't even made the tournament in some of the other years. If Duke's no longer elite, who is? UNC, Kansas, and UCLA are pretty obvious. Memphis, probably, although the conference schedule is a little sad. Florida has two national titles, but hasn't seen the tournament since, and now may lose their coach. Connecticut has the championship for the year of Duke's last Final Four appearance, but since has a postseason performance almost identical to the Blue Devils (Four tournament appearances and one absence, which counting last night's performances, netted two Elite Eight trips.) Who else are you counting as elite, though? Keep in mind the guys from Durham have averaged only seven losses a season these past four years (and almost 28 wins). If Duke doesn't make the cut, it's a precious little club.

(Even if you back it out to Elite Eight teams over the last four years, that's 22 teams with only seven repeat offenders. This ain't beanbag, folks.)

If anything, the recent Duke woes remind me of the stretch for Dean Smith from 1985 to 1990, where the Heels had five top ten finishes in six years but never advanced past the Elite Eight and managed only one ACC Championship. There was a fair amount of talk that Smith was over the hill and should retire, and yes, that the team was no longer "Elite." UNC persevered and spent the rest of Smith's career making it to four Final Fours in seven years and cutting down the nets on New Orleans. As much as I'd rather it not be the case, I don't think this is the last we've seen of Duke competing at a national level.

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As much as I hate Duke.........

Coach K did one hell of a job this year. But im tired of hearing the pundits say that they dont have the talent level they used to. Kyle Singler, Jon weird face, and Gerald Henderson are all very good college basketball players. They are missing two key pc’s. A pure PG and a low post threat. Any time Duke has had a low post stud they have been dominant. Laettner, Boozer, Brand, Shelden Williams. But im not complaining, I love my heels and as long as they keep smacking the dookies around then im a happy camper.

by TARHEEL PAUL on Mar 27, 2009 11:05 PM EDT reply actions  

Well, they don't have the level of talent Duke had in the past...

but when the coach is responsible for acquiring said talent, it makes no sense for giving him extra credit for working with less.

by BraveBronco0121 on Mar 28, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

I never really buy the whole “not having the talent” caveat. Krzyzweski gets the players he wants. They get fast-food accolades. Isn’t it the coach’s job to develop that talent at the next level?

by T.H. on Mar 28, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a Duke fan

I appreciate that you recognize how well Coach K did, for the team he had. I agree with everything you said, except I don’t really like Jon Scheyer, he is very inconsistent.
Classy post.

by SoCalBuff12 on Mar 29, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Didn't he recruit this team?

As far as I’m concerned, when you’re a great coach at a great school, the “look what he did with THAT junk” just doesn’t fly.

by BraveBronco0121 on Mar 29, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm going to agree with some reservations...

I think this is less a case of a guy being past his prime and more one of a coach imposing his own limit on the talent pool. At this point, I’m pretty convinced of one thing about K and the acquisition and development of players – that he abhors the one and done player. Deng burned him in 2004 and since then only Shavlik Randolph and Josh McRoberts have gone pro as underclassmen (and I don’t think he was too upset about Shavlik leaving).

Now K is good enough as a coach to keep this team at an elite level with B grade talent, but there’s no reason not to have the cream of the crop if you’re in K’s position. That Duke in 08-09 was a team without a single competent post player on the team (sorry Zoubek, you sucked against anyone with a pulse) and without a point guard who could break down the defense is pretty inexcusable for a top program who isn’t in a major rebuild.

All in all, there’s a high probability that K knows what he’s doing and we’re just all baffled by his international style of play, but there’s also the possibility that he’s just too arrogant to admit that it isn’t going to work at this level. For a team so reliant on the three point shot, Duke doesn’t really shoot them very well – 34.9% is good for 128th in division 1 and significantly behind UNC’s 38.1. No Duke player hit 40 of his threes or more while four UNC players did. Duke’s defense, at one point the best in the nation, fell apart down the stretch and corresponded to Nolan Smith being taken out of the lineup.

All in all, Duke started 18-1 this year and looked like one of the three best teams in the nation. In their last 18 games, they went 12-6, losing twice to their hated rival and getting bounced from the sweet 16. Last year, they started 22-1 only to go 6-5 to finish up. 2006-07 is unfortunately the same story – 18-3 start, 4-8 finish. Fair or not, they’ve fallen apart at the end of the season three years in a row and doing that is a great way to make people start to think something isn’t quite right.

by BraveBronco0121 on Mar 28, 2009 9:56 AM EDT reply actions  

The list of the Elite imo are

UNC

Duke

UCLA

Mich St

Uconn (despite some lean years)

Arizona

Kentucky (tradition keeps them on the list)

Kansas

Syracuse ( despite missing the tournament 2 out of 3 years they have enough tradition to keep them in)

by Upstait on Mar 28, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions  

Recruits

Either Coach K is a terrible evaluator of talent, or he is deliberately targeting players who aren’t good enough to go to the NBA in the hopes that they will stick around longer and be solid players by their senior year.

The Duke name still has enough cache that it could snag some of the elite recruits if Coach K wanted them. Instead he ends up with slow, unathletic players who can get run off the court by a team like Villanova. And they have no one in the post so they would’ve gotten creamed by Pitt instead if things had gone that far.

by Orval Overall on Mar 29, 2009 4:40 PM EDT reply actions  

I am impressed. Thank you

As a diehard Duke fan I must say I am pleasantly suprised at the posts you guys have made. I am used to reading comments that comprise mostly of spelling Duke as dook and then the reader telling us how much they hate Duke but never really giving anything insightful to the discussion.
Now with that being said I must admit that I agree with some of what is being posted. As a ‘top flight’ program such UNC or Duke you should never use the crutch ‘doing more with less talent’ so BraveBronco you are rigth. Coach K recruited the talent and he has a good feeling of what he gets when they arrive on campus. There are currently 6 or 7 McD’s AA on that roster, but talent can only take you so far.
I think the problem lies not with Coach K soley but with his sorry ass group of Associate Head Coaches. I wish I wish I wish that K would get rid of Wojo and Collins. They have shown over the past few years that they have no idea how to coach. I mean is is by accident that neithers’ name is EVER mentioned when there are any coaching vacanies. They were useless as players and now they are passing that on. They couldn’t guard on the ball or stay with a shifty PG and now they are passing on that lack of athletisim to Duke’s bevy of guards. Is it a coincidence that Nate James comes in, spends time coaching up Elliot and by the end of the year he is the ‘spark’ that carries them to a winning record during the second half of the season, an ACC tourney championship and helps them advance further in the Big Dance then they have the past 2 years. I shudder to think how the season would have ended if Nate had not been there to help Elliot.
I am not a big fan of Roy, but two things he does very well are 1. recruit kids and 2. his staff is made up of Bball coaches, not merely graduates of his alma mater. If K every realizes how much Dwidle slow and Dwidle slower are holding back the program then Duke could once again be a national title contender.

To go out and ruin somebody's dreams like that, it feels real good," Oregon receiver Jaison Williams.

by DuckinNC on Apr 2, 2009 8:58 PM EDT reply actions  

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